I talk openly to my children about the various relationships that are being practised. They are not being wrapped in cotton wool. I also talk to them about what the Bible and the church have taught about what constitutes marriage. I wonder if ever I was to go on a government parenting course, what it is I would be told to teach my children about issues in human sexuality. Churches run parenting courses all over the country. I would be curious to know if they cover these issues and whether there is any variety between courses on this issue.
I think it's really interesting that The Telegraph uses religious language to explore this issue saying: 'We are witnessing a modern, secular Inquisition – a determined effort to force everyone to accept a new set of orthodoxies or face damnation as social heretics if they refuse.'
There seems to be a new faith system dominating: secular humanism, and those who disagree are the marginalised and the misunderstood. Perhaps with the crossing of this theological rubicon on sexual issues, for in many ways that is what it is, the church will have to consider separating itself from the state. Perhaps Christianity will become a more distinct way of life again. There will be less careless census form filling and more consideration for those who might at one time have ticked the 'Christian' box.
Are we really a secular state? It does not feel that way to me, but then I am at theological college, with children in a Church of England school. The Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali has spoken out regarding the facts that a monarch takes a coronation oath promising to uphold the laws of God. Acts of Parliament are passed with the consent of “the Lords Spiritual”. The Queen’s Speech finishes with a blessing from Almighty God. He does not believe we are a secular country.
Do you?
In what ways do you think Christianity is still shaping the legal system of this country?
Hi Rachel
ReplyDeleteWho says I never read your blog?
My response is here
I didn't realise Proverbs 27:17 said "Thanks for sharing"... more seriously iron does sharpen iron - thanks :)
Hi Lesley, welcome.
ReplyDeleteI watched the film which made me feel seriously uncomfortable - ouch! I guess what I see is the story of fallen humanity played out over and over again. The same mistakes made by the generations as with Gen chs. 12, 20, 26 about
Abram/Abraham/Isaac passing off his wife as his sister.
It has been interesting today looking at the letter to the Romans. I have a pile of books in front of me: Stott, Webb, Gagnon and a book ed. by Paul E Brown. This blog continues to journey through the issues. I have been looking at Benny's blog tonight and some of the literature produced by 'Accepting Evangelicals.' I need to try to find a scholar with a high view of scripture who can articulate from scripture a case for gay marriage. Melvin Tinker wrote to me a while ago on this issue. I must dig that correspondence out but then, of course, his theology is conservative. I remember crying in response to the heckler in Fraser's church verbally abusing Robinson when he communicated there. There is this impossible place I am trying to navigate between the views. I have a view and I am seeking to learn how to express it. It's not easy. But then none of it ever was going to be easy, I suppose.
Thanks for dropping by.
Okay, while you are at it can you find someone with a high view of scripture to articulate a case for blogging, or using toothbrushes? There is no gay marriage in the Bible because the culture didn't do gay marriage... it is only very recently that it is possible. Hence all that we can read in the bible is what God thinks of extra-marital homosexual sex, male temple prostitution and homosexual rape. Perhaps it is no surprise that the Bible seems agin it at first glance. But this has nothing to do with faithful lifelong loving relationships between equals. I think you will need to look somewhere other than the Bible to answer that question, whether it is within your heart or in prayer or by talking to gay folks about their gay marriage...
ReplyDeleteI'll let you know how I get on....:-D
ReplyDeleteHi Rachel,
ReplyDeleteYou could do all that is suggested and still come up with a view which goes against the secular humanism of England. You would stand in a long line of ethics which has determined not to approve of same sex relationships. The real question here is not the rightness or wrongness of same sex relationships but whether you have the right in England to teach your own children what you believe when that belief stands in a long ethical tradition (which also happens to stand within the historic and established faith of your nation over which your sovereign is also governor)?
If you do not have that right then logically the next step is for the State to take your children from you. Is that what you want?
"I need to try to find a scholar with a high view of scripture who can articulate from scripture a case for gay marriage."
ReplyDeleteYou might as well look for square circles and four-sided triangles.
You won't find women bishops in the Bible either.
Lesley's comments are, sadly, risible, as she seems to know nothing of Plato's Symposium, or Hadrian and Antinous or Nero and his "wife".
"The culture" did an awful lot in the first century that Lesley seems to know nothing of.
Try reading C. S. Lewis's "The Abolition of Man".
"Hence all that we can read in the bible is what God thinks of extra-marital homosexual sex, male temple prostitution and homosexual rape."
ReplyDeleteThat is simply not true. You haven't read Gagnon and grasped what he is saying.
"Okay, while you are at it can you find someone with a high view of scripture to articulate a case for blogging, or using toothbrushes?"
ReplyDeletei guess blogging is about communication, there is plenty about the importance of that in the Bible. Biblioblogging and Anglican blogging is motivated by a quest to know God better and make meaning together in community. The Pauline Epistles are all about this too.
Toothbrushes - well, I suppose if we have a correct theology which avoids all unfortunate platonic body/soul dichotomies and realise a God of the whole person, we can comprehend too a God to whom not only the hairs on our heads but the teeth in our mouths are precious.
I am still struggling to make a case for gay 'marriage.'
On the cross Jesus said to the one who he loved 'John this is your mother', she then went home with him even though she should have been with James, Jesus' next of kin... thereby the last thing that Jesus did was to create a civil partnership between him and John, and he made gay marriage a sacrament.
ReplyDeleteThis is also found between Jonathan and David who had a love that was greater than that for a woman, they made a contact and their households were then joined together.. in matrimony.
In the words of a famous Tim - you can't be serious!
ReplyDeleteOops i mean John
ReplyDeleteArgh.. can't comment any more the colours are giving me a headache. It isn't my theory it is Canon Dr Beau Stevenson's theory.. I'll post the link on my blog when I get around to it.
ReplyDeleteYou aren't going to find what you are looking for in the Bible because the culture didn't permit it. However, if one is homophobic then demanding biblical evidence is a good way of hiding prejudice (not saying you are like that - just thing some are).
i appreciate the brackets, really, because if I was doing anything that was hinting at homophobia, I would seriously want to be shown that so that I could duly have some very long conversations with God and other people who could help to pray for me and transform me... I pray for this anyway... but I would pray harder
ReplyDelete"You aren't going to find what you are looking for in the Bible because the culture didn't permit it."
ReplyDeleteAgain, demonstrating ignorance of Greco-Roman history and literature. Look up Hadrian and Antinous, or Lysias and his eromenos. Read Plato's Symposium. The facts are all out there - read them! Loving homosexual partnerships were well known in ancient Greece, and were central to Spartan education. Have you never heard of Lycurgus? Did you never learn this at university?
"However, if one is homophobic then demanding biblical evidence is a good way of hiding prejudice (not saying you are like that - just thing some are)."
'Homophobia' was also unknown in the Bible, mainly because it wasn't invented until the 1980s.
Seriously, the jesting reference to Jesus and Paul that you make is profoundly unworthy of a Christian. I am ashamed to read such 'jokes'.
Anon - I am not sure Lesley is engaging anymore because she doesn't like to read the white on black background. The reference she makes to Jesus (Paul?) which you found difficult, I suspect she is unpacking on her blog or she would provide you with the article which promotes the viewpoint, she references Canon Dr Beau Stevenson.
ReplyDeleteI meant to write 'Jesus and John', not Paul.
ReplyDeleteI have never heard of 'Canon Dr Beau Stevenson', or the many others in Tec who have time on their hands but few parishioners to minister to in their aging, disappearing churches. But I know enough about what passes for 'biblical exegesis' to give such sexually-obsessed places a wide berth. Did you know for example that Canbridge Episcopal Seminary in Massachusetts is majority gay now? Do you really want that in the Church of England?
OK, now I see from some quick googling that Beau Stevenson is a retired mental health chaplain originally from the US, now in Oxford.
ReplyDeleteNot exactly what I call 'serious biblical scholarship'.
"I need to try to find a scholar with a high view of scripture who can articulate from scripture a case for gay marriage."
ReplyDeleteAnd one more time: Tobias Haller, Reasonable and Holy.
...bless you for your patience, Erika...I am ordering it, will read it on the way to the big apple where I will be discussing these things for a week...
ReplyDeleteHere is the link
ReplyDeleteIn what ways do you think Christianity is still shaping the legal system of this country?
ReplyDeleteSunday trading laws, anyone?
Or how about Good Friday and Christmas Day as statutory holidays? People of other faiths have to take their religious holidays out of their holiday allowance for the year, Christians get two of the important ones automatically. How does that work?
I have lived as part of a non-Christian faith community (I considered conversion to Orthodox Judaism at one stage), and I can assure you that this is still a very Christian country in both law and culture.